hydrogen peroxide, potassium permaganate

[harif887]

Originally Posted by soyadude

The general way of measuring pp dosage is grain of pp per ml water. I've never used it to treat fish. It's used to sterilize stuff.. like cooking equipment if you're out camping or something. So for instance, two grains for a pot. It's hard to measure PP exactly because of the size of grains they come in. Light purple should be roundabouts right for minute dip. It's not as painful as 10% Hydrogen peroxide, that's for sure.

I learnt that pp + glycerine = fire from a dude that used to work for my parents when I was a kid. He was showing me this magic trick, he started a fire by waving at a clump of newspapers.... i later found out he used pp and glycerine so the fire is delayed until he waves his hand..

So better off strying to measure by grain than by color, because color can be affected by any sort or residu that i sseen or not that is in the cup/bow/jar.....

Ive only used pp in the lab with certain pH experiments....never lit it on fire lol next time i got lab im bringing sugar with me

[standoyo]

Originally Posted by harif887

Im sorry butyou said to mix PP until you get a light purple color.....Thats no accurate way of measuring out chemicals!!!at all!! Thats one of the most dangerous ways to gauge how much you have in there. If you do this your fish will die.

When measuring chemicals you must measure EXACT. And sometimes exact isnt even good enough. Thats why in lab experiments you have a "theoretical" value and the "observed" value. The theoretical is what should be seen when conditions are ideal. And people in the lab try to make situations as ideal as possible by measuring with graducated cylinders and of the like and they still dont get that close to theoretical as one would hope.
The only way you can guage by color is if you are GOD. And i highly doubt god would be on this forum reading up on how to take care of his fish..........

I dont mean to offend anyone but Bottom line is MEASURE CORRECTLY

Hi haris,

You are right about getting the dosage right and this chemical is more forgiving than lets say formalin.

I think you missed the part where i say 'Never put the crystals directly into tank. Always use a small toothpick/cotton bud to swab some crystals and mix in small container/bottle then dose to reach desired colour concentration.'

That's dumb. i quoted myself. Look at what you made me do.

IME and from advice of discus breeders, colour is a good indicator of its potency. You can also tell if it's oxidised or not by the freshness of the purple colour.[the opposite being brown]

So while i think need reassurance, i think you are being overdramatic and no, i'm not god or the dozens of discus breeders/others out there who use this method to kill some ectoparasites.

So FWIW the idea is there and if you don't like it don't worry, it isn't personal.

PS. Soyadude:i think using grains as a measurement is cool for disinfecting pots.

Regards

Stan

[soyadude]

That's what my dad told me about the grains, if i remember right. I just heat my tin mug on a fire to sterilize it .

[chochiss]

this is the first time I come across measuring pp via coloration. it's best to weigh it & mix it with water solutions. the right ppm is a must as high un-measured dosages will kill any damn thing easily.....not forgetting fishes.

pp oxidises organic materials...contents.......so most of the parasystic organisms will be dead. to kill all parasites in fishes.....you have to achieve at least pink coloration for a minimal time of 4 hours & do it for 2 days to be fully assured.

[standoyo]

Originally Posted by chochiss

this is the first time I come across measuring pp via coloration. it's best to weigh it & mix it with water solutions. the right ppm is a must as high un-measured dosages will kill any damn thing easily.....not forgetting fishes.

pp oxidises organic materials...contents.......so most of the parasystic organisms will be dead. to kill all parasites in fishes.....you have to achieve at least pink coloration for a minimal time of 4 hours & do it for 2 days to be fully assured.

Hi,

IMO the simplest/cheap method is still to eyeball the colour. Hey when someone told me that it also raised questions like you guys a year back. You may kill your fish if you are klutzy and spill the whole mixture in.

I'd like to ask how heavy is twenty PP crystals? Ever though of how light that is? You have a super lab scale? Get real man.

You can weigh 1 gram, create stock solution and keep. Not for long, the stuff oxidizes.
1 gram of pp mixed into stock would be ok if you had a lot of tanks to dose. Say like a couple of thousand liters?

------
After using it for a few times i'd say it's fine and easy enough unless you are blind or seriously colour tone challenged.

I have discus which i dose periodically once every two or three months. 4-8 hour baths for light colour ~20-30% tint is ok.
~1/2 hr for medium tone is even better.
If the colour turned brown you might as well do a water change and freshen up the water. Skip a day to redose as the gills of the fish get a little burned in the process and watch the fish closely. Some fish may react very badly to it and start swimming agitatedly. Remove them and do 100%WC in those cases.

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Not that i like you using the stuff but it's cheap, instant and easy without the problems of popular carcinogenic formalin or long time treatment for antibiotics. One I would use when salt treatment fails.

R

Stan

[chochiss]

Originally Posted by standoyo

Hi,

IMO the simplest/cheap method is still to eyeball the colour. Hey when someone told me that it also raised questions like you guys a year back. You may kill your fish if you are klutzy and spill the whole mixture in.

I'd like to ask how heavy is twenty PP crystals? Ever though of how light that is? You have a super lab scale? Get real man.

You can weigh 1 gram, create stock solution and keep. Not for long, the stuff oxidizes.
1 gram of pp mixed into stock would be ok if you had a lot of tanks to dose. Say like a couple of thousand liters?

------
After using it for a few times i'd say it's fine and easy enough unless you are blind or seriously colour tone challenged.

I have discus which i dose periodically once every two or three months. 4-8 hour baths for light colour ~20-30% tint is ok.
~1/2 hr for medium tone is even better.
If the colour turned brown you might as well do a water change and freshen up the water. Skip a day to redose as the gills of the fish get a little burned in the process and watch the fish closely. Some fish may react very badly to it and start swimming agitatedly. Remove them and do 100%WC in those cases.

-------
Not that i like you using the stuff but it's cheap, instant and easy without the problems of popular carcinogenic formalin or long time treatment for antibiotics. One I would use when salt treatment fails.

R

Stan

Stan stan......

The mixture of PP will not oxidise unless you leave out in the sun or it have sunlight passing through it la. Dun think your little 1g will be able to prepare mixture for thousands of liters la. I usually prep up about 1litre of pp @ 2ppm & it'll last me bout 3 months....depending on fishes health. I do drop in meds & help out for my friend's LFS in the quarantine section. So you want the calculation onot?

You see the thing about pp is......

- Measuring the right amount of ppm is a must cos if not.....death will occur.
- The color purple stays in the same shade of tint no matter how much you dose it.
- Color transitions will be from purple to pink then when all pp is spent, it'll turn brown.
- I do not use it regularly as it'll stress up the fishes cos it's a little caustic. But it'll surely brighten up your fishes' color though.
- You can discolor or de-activate pp by dousing H2o2. It clears up pp & de-activates them.

In preparing meds through chemicals & organic science...I'm a mad scientist!!! All this are done with the help of my wifey though....sometimes you just can't argue with a future biotechnologist. Damn........

[Gold FinGer]

Questions
-wat is the meaning of PPM? plz exuse me coz i m still a newbie.
-Like one of the forummer said we can measure potassium permaganate by using Grain[64.79891mg] but i dun think we can get such a sensitive weighting scale mayb we can roughly divide it from 1000mg (1g) 15 times[1000 divide by 64.79891]
-let say i got 600ml of water in a bucket, how much of potassium permaganate should i use?

conclusion(correct me if i m wrong)
-Potassium permaganate and Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) are used 2 burn bacteria and kill pathogens of a new fish b4 introduce it into the main tank
-some of the forummer said can measure PP by observing the colour of the water when the water and PP are mixed. when the colour of the water change 2 pink then it is safe to dip ur fish for about 10 seconds
-do not dip ur fish too long if it got open wound
-Both H2O2and potassium permaganate can be found in local pharmacies
- potassium permaganate can be discolor or de-activate by dousing H2o2. It clears up pp & de-activates them.

THXs for all the details

[standoyo]

Originally Posted by chochiss

Stan stan......

The mixture of PP will not oxidise unless you leave out in the sun or it have sunlight passing through it la. Dun think your little 1g will be able to prepare mixture for thousands of liters la. I usually prep up about 1litre of pp @ 2ppm & it'll last me bout 3 months....depending on fishes health. I do drop in meds & help out for my friend's LFS in the quarantine section. So you want the calculation onot?

You see the thing about pp is......

- Measuring the right amount of ppm is a must cos if not.....death will occur.
- The color purple stays in the same shade of tint no matter how much you dose it.
- Color transitions will be from purple to pink then when all pp is spent, it'll turn brown.
- I do not use it regularly as it'll stress up the fishes cos it's a little caustic. But it'll surely brighten up your fishes' color though.
- You can discolor or de-activate pp by dousing H2o2. It clears up pp & de-activates them.

In preparing meds through chemicals & organic science...I'm a mad scientist!!! All this are done with the help of my wifey though....sometimes you just can't argue with a future biotechnologist. Damn........

Chochiss Chochiss,


So your methods differ so we have to agree to disagree.

For one, it's safer to do water change than to add another oxidising agent. Sounds like you didn't do your homework when you tell people to add another highly reactive agent into the tank.
Sure it deactivates the PP but it adds more stress to the fish doesn't it?
A little Sodium tiosulphate after the WC is better IMHO or just sticking in some Activated carbon in the filter after WC.


On my inadequacies, i admit i don't have a scale that can measure even 1 gram let alone fractions of it. So i have no idea how much 1 gram of PP is.

4 discus tanks for me is 960 liters of water which means for one time dosing i only use is like a teaspoon of PP which is like too many grains to count and to light to measure. [My mom's baking scale is per 100g.]

If you did your calculations, 2000 liters of water per 1 g of PP is 0.5 mg/L is on the safe side, then again i look for the colour method.
For using PP, look herefor dosage bearing in mind this is for pond treatment.

The article states to look out for a light pink colour. I am sorry you are tonally challenged so you may have to rely on the textbook way, though not wrong but not perfect either.

Oxidisation factor in the tank is a factor. If higher, the colour doesn't last and you need to redose extra[refer to article], a light pink colour to be maintained over a period of time for effectiveness.

Practical is much different, bigger fish can tolerate higher doses and smaller ones may not as expert opinion will tell you.
------

The method of mixing a swab of crystals into 500ml of water and pouring a little into tank, swirling it a bit to check for colour tone, then pouring a bit more to get desired colour is really simple, unless you are tonally challenged.

Discus breeders in Malaysia have been using it for decades this way, I'd be mightily respectful of their opinion considering some of them maintain anywhere between 100 to 1500 tanks with daily WC.

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No point in keeping PP around the house in it's stock solution state. Keeping something like this for 3 months is a disaster waiting to happen.
Seriously, hope you don't have kids who may mistake it for Ribena. Luckily you state it's for an LFS.
Home users will want a simpler less riskier method.

------

R

Stan
BTW, I took the time to research my opinions before i post them.

[chochiss]

Originally Posted by standoyo

Chochiss Chochiss,


So your methods differ so we have to agree to disagree.

For one, it's safer to do water change than to add another oxidising agent. Sounds like you didn't do your homework when you tell people to add another highly reactive agent into the tank.
Sure it deactivates the PP but it adds more stress to the fish doesn't it?
A little Sodium tiosulphate after the WC is better IMHO or just sticking in some Activated carbon in the filter after WC.


On my inadequacies, i admit i don't have a scale that can measure even 1 gram let alone fractions of it. So i have no idea how much 1 gram of PP is.

4 discus tanks for me is 960 liters of water which means for one time dosing i only use is like a teaspoon of PP which is like too many grains to count and to light to measure. [My mom's baking scale is per 100g.]

If you did your calculations, 2000 liters of water per 1 g of PP is 0.5 mg/L is on the safe side, then again i look for the colour method.
For using PP, look herefor dosage bearing in mind this is for pond treatment.

The article states to look out for a light pink colour. I am sorry you are tonally challenged so you may have to rely on the textbook way, though not wrong but not perfect either.

Oxidisation factor in the tank is a factor. If higher, the colour doesn't last and you need to redose extra[refer to article], a light pink colour to be maintained over a period of time for effectiveness.

Practical is much different, bigger fish can tolerate higher doses and smaller ones may not as expert opinion will tell you.
------

The method of mixing a swab of crystals into 500ml of water and pouring a little into tank, swirling it a bit to check for colour tone, then pouring a bit more to get desired colour is really simple, unless you are tonally challenged.

Discus breeders in Malaysia have been using it for decades this way, I'd be mightily respectful of their opinion considering some of them maintain anywhere between 100 to 1500 tanks with daily WC.

------
No point in keeping PP around the house in it's stock solution state. Keeping something like this for 3 months is a disaster waiting to happen.
Seriously, hope you don't have kids who may mistake it for Ribena. Luckily you state it's for an LFS.
Home users will want a simpler less riskier method.

------

R

Stan
BTW, I took the time to research my opinions before i post them.

Dear Stan,

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not looking for an argument to clarify who is right or wrong. I'm just sharing some opinions about PP usage. It's fairly dangerous to just dose teaspoon of PP crystals just like that. I'll share with you on how you can measure a proper & safe PP solution preparations. Actually you can do it with even your mom's weighing scale for baking cakes.

If it's possible, please get an electronic scale the mini sized ones to be more precise. As for 960liters of water, your periodic PP treatment should be justifiable to prepare a stock solution.

But first & foremost...I would like to clarify myself. The H2O2 dosage is to clear my tank after PP are spent. Therefore, before this dosage was introduced into the tank, "ALL MY FISHES" are removed before clearing the PP. H2O2 to me is just to de-stain or as an agent to remove the stains left by the PP stuff. Not for the fishes lar. After clearing the tank with H202, I usually do a complete WC.

Anyways, below will be the calculations as I hope that we can share & exchange our experiences to further increase our knowledge rather than argue & defend who are the expert.

Just to share with all you guys, this is taken from another Forum called Raffles Gold - www.rafflesgold.com

This calculation are being posted by the moderator nicked bro Desireless.

Potassium Permanganate 'Stock Solution'


This is the PP solution which you keep in your medicine box should you need PP treatment in future. In another words, you keep this "self-concocted" medicine in a bottle and use it like the Interpet series medications. (And I supposed this is how they manufactured "Oce-- Fr-- : Super Disease Away" too :wink )

To put in simple terms, it is quite an impossible task for indoor aquatic hobbyists to measure 2ppm or 4ppm of PP (without using an electronic weighing machine) for safe application to their aquarium (usually of lesser than 400litres of water). So we need to tackle this issue a smarter way. The solution to measuring this minute amount of PP is to use "Stock solution"

A more elaborated method (from MrChoco's post) of preparing your own stock solution is as follows:

1. For goldfish, we can use 2ppm to 4ppm of PP for EXTERNAL DISEASE treatments. I am using 4ppm* 2ppm for my illustration. (Self-edited so as to reduce confussion.)

2. Prepare 1 litre of distilled water. Get from pharmacy or create yourself**. Just pour out 500ml of distilled water and use the bottle (of remaining 1 litre left) as your stock solution bottle.

3. Add 20grams of PP powder into the 1litre of distilled water. PP Powder (of 15mg) can be bought from any pharmacy at RM 2.50. The powder should dissolve quite easily. With the space in the bottle, you can shake the bottle vigorously to totally dissolve the PP powder.

4. Now you will have 1 litre of 20,000ppm of Potassium Permanganate as "Stock Solution". Keep this 1 litre of stock solution in a bottle in a cool, dark place.

(I use a smaller "Oce-- Fr-- bottle as a secondary storage. In addition, a measuring cup for more precise dosing.)


----------------------

So.... you've found your fish to be suffering from some EXTERNAL diseases of microscopic parasitic or bacteria natured (PP treats most EXTERNAL parasites and bacteria), and you would want to administer the PP treatment.

5. Using the stock solution, apply 1ml to 10litres of water. Meaning you apply 2ml to 20litres in your QT tank. Or 5ml to 50litres of water. Doing any of these, you are administering 2ppm of PP treatment.
(I am using 4ppm of PP treatment for '1st treatment', meaning to say I add 1ml to 5 litres, or 2ml to 10litres, or 5ml to 25litres of water.)

6. As you can see, just use simple mathematical manipulation and you can calculate how much stock solution to use.

7. PP Dip. This is similar to Salt Dip. You can only execute it for no more than 5 minutes so please take note. PP Dip is not so recommended because the oxidizing mechanism of PP can sometimes wear out the fine gill structure (fried gills). The dosage to use for PP DIP is usually 20ppm to 25ppm of PP. So with your 20,000ppm of PP stock solution, to prepare 20ppm PP for dip purpose, just add 1ml to 1litres of water.
PP Dip is not a necessary process. This is because the normal PP treatment would have exterminated all bacteria and parasite by the 3rd treatment (3rd day).


(That's all, folks. Simple as ABC )
======================


* I have edited from 40,000ppm PP stock solution to 20,000ppm. Reason being all teachings are using 2ppm of PP for treatment (as example). So in order not to confuse hobbyists, I have changed to using 2ppm PP treatment. Goldfish can take 4ppm of PP as treatment but the time taken for oxidization to complete will be longer than what was being taught.

** How to create distilled water? Distilled water is achieved when you condense evaporated water (vapour). For example, you can use mirror on top of boiling water to collect the condensed water. Drip the collected water into a container. This method is tedious but just telling you that it can be done.
But what the heck... 1.5litres of distilled water is only 70 cents nia




======
Derivations and Equations are as follows:
(Optional, but good to know. Please help me check if there's any mistake hor )

For water (H20):
1mg/litre = 1ppm (parts per million)
so 1ppm = 1:1,000,000 and it is represented by 0.000001 (from 1/1,000,000)
1ml = 0.001 litres
1ml = 1g
1g = 1000mg
thus 1mg = 0.001g = 0.001ml = 0.000001 litres
All those come back to 1mg/litre = 1 ppm,
1ppm which is 1:1,000,000 can be represented by
1/1,000,000 = 0.000001

From 1.,
2ppm is 0.000002. We want to achieve this number.

From 3. & 4.,
20g -> 1000ml
20g -> 1000g
20 : 1000 => 20/1000 = 0.02

We know that,
1ppm is represented by 0.000001, but what ppm is represented by 0.02 then??
>> 0.02/0.000001 = 20,0000
Hence, 0.02 is the numeric representation of 20,000 ppm (20K ppm)

From 5.,
we have 20,000ppm of PP in the stock solution (0.02). We want to achieve 2 ppm of PP in water (0.000002).

To see the “ratio link”:
First,
20,000 ppm = 20,000 mg/litre
2 ppm = 2 mg/litre

20,000ppm -> 1 : ???? -> 2ppm

To find this ratio,
20,000/2 = 10,000
Hence the ratio is 1:10,000
That is,
1g : 10,000g
1litre : 10,000litres
1ml : 10,000ml = 1ml : 10litres

1ml of your stock solution brings 10 litres of water to 2ppm.
By same ratio, 1litre of solution (in your bottle) treats 10,000 litres of water.

For further detailed clarifications, kindly view this link - http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/in...um+permaganate

Thanx!

[standoyo]

i think you missed the boat somewhere. I'm sure you're familiar with KISS.

With all you typed you missed an important fact that you need an accurate scale. Mom's won't cut it.

R

Stan